Greetings A/all,

Alas I have no documentation however I have heard Grand Master used
here and there (although not part of the Old Gourd as bunny fu fu put
it).  I beleive the context of it was to denote a Master who had been
in the Lifestyle for many many years and had come to represent the
things that are normally looked for in a Master: skill, knowledge,
dedication, etc etc.  Kind of the pinnacle of being a Master.

As for monty's pointing out the mis-spelling of Old Gaurd that is just
monty.  Being out on the islands all alone has made him yearn for the
days when he would do something such as that to piss U/us off so W/we
would abuse him for a day or so.  lol.  So with that in mind:  monty
go find a nice big palm frond and flog yourself with it for 100
strokes...... and make them good ones too.

Prophett,
Lord, The House of Darkwatch

Being a former titleholder (Oklahoma Mr. leather 2000, and a former
contestant at international Mr. leather), and someone who is actively
involved in the gay leather community.  The title of grandmaster is something
that I have never heard.  I have done extensive research, ( Leathersex
{Joseph Bean}, Ties that Bind {Guy Baldwin}, Leatherfolk {Robert Thompson},
Different Loving {Gloria Brame} and an essay written by Gale Rubin.  These
are all respected leatherfolk and a few have been around since the 1960s.
(And they still don't consider themselves to be "Old Guard"I have sat on a
panel that that discussed Old Guard.  And I have never heard this term.
Please let me know, where you have heard this term.  I have spent two years
researching this topic.
If you can provide this I would be me than happy to accept it.  However I
have never read about this title (grand master) or know anyone using it to
date.  The only exception that I know of is in martial arts.  The title of
grand master is given to an individual who founds his/her own system of
martial arts.  Or they are the oldest living partitioner of a specific
fighting style.

I am not trying to be a "know-it-all," but I would be grateful to see
documentation.

The reason why I am being persistent with this specific term is, because
there is a mystique about Old Guard Leather and people have many perceptions
about the protocol and the terminology.  However, many of the people who were
considered to be Old Guard passed away during the late 70s and early 80s due
to the AIDS epidemic.  Documentation was lost, and the surviving few that I
had the opportunity to either speak with or read, have never mentioned the
term grand master.  For me its not a matter of arguing as much as it is to
maintain the integrity and accuracy of history (if that is possible, due to
the nature of history).  There are other resources that I haven't read, like
the leather timeline which is distributed by the Leather Archives and Museum
located in Chicago.

Forgive me, but the Internet and people who do not do research do say things
that cannot be documented, before anything is said. I feel that it may be
beneficial to newcomers to have accurate information.  It is quite
embarrassing when people say things that they perceive as fact, and it isn't.
 It makes their community look bad.

Simply,
T

Speaking of Old Guard

I have never seen, heard or read about that term grand master being used.
Its quite interesting because in the leather community.  There is a faction
that says that Old Guard, the way it is perceived in all of its mythical
glory, doesn't exist.  And maybe it has been romanticized to such an extent
that everyone has lost track of what The Old Guard was. (1945-c.1970s)

I would have to disagree about the term grand master being used in the Old
Guard context.  I'd be interested in seeing the documentation and speaking
with those people you consider Old Guard, who use that term.  Generally
speaking, one had to have been born around the 1920s or 1930s to be
considered to be Old Guard as it is known today.  I have read one article by
a leatherman who was around since the 1920s, before leather, hanky codes,
chaps, harnesses, Master Caps and arm bands. Grand Master wasn't part of his
vocabulary.

T


Greetings!  I would like to discuss the controversy of the title
"Grand Master" just a bit. I think that perhaps the reason T has not
found formal documentation on its definition is that it is a more a
slang type term as opposed to a formal title. T's previous title of
Mr. Leather is a formal title recognized community wide and its
definition is clearly stated and set as it had to be, because of the
very nature of the title and the responsibility that comes with it.
The informal titles of sub/Dom Master/slave are not bestowed
necessarily, they are ones adopted by the holder themselves, or used
by others to describe the person within the bdsm community.  Perhaps
the description Grand Master was created due to a need for one or some
to describe a Master who was head and shoulders above the general
concept of Master.  I personally have the pleasure of being being
associated with someone whom many refer to as a "Grand Master".  It is
his aura, his impeccable style, his extensive lifestyle knowledge, his
willingness to mentor, and his many years of experience that make you
want to address him in a way that sets him apart from other Masters.
This man has never asked a sub or slave to refer to him as Master, and
he does not address himself as such, yet I do not know of any subs who
have been in his presence for any length of time and do not
automatically address him as such, and with great reverence. I do not
believe that a term for something or someone needs to be formally
defined, amended, voted on and documented for it to be accepted in the
community. Many regions of our country have terms and slang that mean
nothing to someone who does not reside in the community, but those who
have picked up on it have a working knowledge of their meanings and
use them. In the northern states you tag your dog, and license your
car. LOL... anyway, that is my observation.  And I stress that I do
not post this with a "right or wrong" attitude...just what I have
observed and how I interpreted it.  Please!  Keep the thread going! I
am really enjoying everyones thoughts.

ladyshivers,
Lady, The House of Darkwatch


I didn't post a response but had I, it would have been in total agreement with T, just not as succinct.

                 As far as Grand Masters are concerned I'm only aware of them in chess and the
martial arts & maybe golf.  LOL

T, I sure would like to read that article you spoke of in your other post
written by someone from the 1920's and 30's.  Can you locate it again?

                 Hank


Its in the Leather Journal 10th annual edition.  You can purchase it from
Dave Rhodes.  Its an amazing article.  It dispels several myths and makes a
few clarifications about the early gay leather community.  It costs about 10 dollars .

i have not read about it either... It is only something i was told by a
Domme i know and trust.. One who came up as a bi woman in a gay leather
community.  She now resides in Houston, but most of her BDSM life was in
California and Colorado.  She is in her late 50's but has been lifestyle for
about 35 years.  She began as i said ... as a slave to the community, and
worked her way up.  She was taught primarily by men in the gay community.
She talks about how many in that community were destroyed in the 70's during
the aids epidemic, and how she watched and served many as they died.  She
said she had known only a few who were called by the term Grand Master, and
it was a title given...not taken.  Now, Who is right, and who is wrong..
First of all, i prefaced my comments with. IN MY OPINION... i do that because
it seems someone always takes objection to something i say.  i am usually
considered a SAM.... i see myself a but dufferent, but who's to say.

 i do not think you are necessarily wrong because you believe you have to
have documentation in order to believe something.. i do not consider myself
wrong because i believe the folk lore of the community.  Many things are
never documented but handed down one to another in a community.  i have never
myself met anyone i would refer to as a Grand Master.  That does not make it
a non truth.  i also believe in God..... and to some that takes blind
faith... But i value your right to believe as you wish.  Good luck in your
search for the "truth"

susie


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